Could Visual Reorientation Illusions be 4d Related?

Discussions about how to visualize 4D and higher, whether through crosseyedness, dreaming, or connecting one's nerves directly to a computer sci-fi style.

Postby PWrong » Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:52 am

I might have had a VRI a few weeks ago when I held a party. One second I was downstairs playing drinking games, and the next second I was upstairs making a drunken attempt to play the piano.

I've had other experiences where I seem to teleport from a club to a kebab shop, then to someone's house.
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Postby Nick » Thu Dec 14, 2006 3:00 am

Hmmm... I see, Hugh. This concept of VRI's is pretty interesting. I don't think I can do it at will, though, but I'll try the next time I go to a movie theater.


PWrong wrote:I might have had a VRI a few weeks ago when I held a party. One second I was downstairs playing drinking games, and the next second I was upstairs making a drunken attempt to play the piano.

I've had other experiences where I seem to teleport from a club to a kebab shop, then to someone's house.


I think that's just you being drunk... :sweatdrop:
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Postby Hugh » Thu Dec 14, 2006 5:54 am

Rob wrote:Hmm, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by a VRI, but would an example of it be the fact that when I sleep the other end of my bed, I feel the wrong way round in the morning?

Ummmmmm, I think that's just due to sleeping the wrong way round that you feel the wrong way round. You'll know it's a VRI when you see things the "wrong way round". :)
PWrong wrote:I might have had a VRI a few weeks ago when I held a party. One second I was downstairs playing drinking games, and the next second I was upstairs making a drunken attempt to play the piano.

I've had other experiences where I seem to teleport from a club to a kebab shop, then to someone's house.

Ummmmmmmmmmmmm, I'd have to agree with irockyou there. :lol:
irockyou wrote:Hmmm... I see, Hugh. This concept of VRI's is pretty interesting. I don't think I can do it at will, though, but I'll try the next time I go to a movie theater.

Great! Please do. Try to be very conscious of the orientation of which direction you are facing in your overall mental map. Practice a bit before going to the theater a few times.

Think of how you feel when facing the movie screen towards the "north". Visualize yourself sitting in that theater facing the screen in a northerly direction. Do the same with each of the other directions; south, east and west. Feel how it feels to sit in each of those directions. Then when you get to the theater, see which direction it is that you are facing.

You just have to think of being in another theater that faces one of the other three directions, and you should get a 90 or 180 degree VRI flip after focusing on it for a while. If the movie begins, continue to try to do the flip every few minutes. Don't ruin your enjoyment of the movie over it but just mentally think every once and a while which direction it is that you are facing the screen. Think of when you watched a movie in another town that faced in one of the other directions. You might be surprised to find that on one of your checks that you have flipped things around. Cool. Try to hold it there. Realize that you are now seeing the exact same screen from another direction. Go back to watching the movie. Play around with this.

It's fun to be able to do all four flips eventually, and try them in other places too. :)
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Postby PWrong » Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:44 am

I think that's just you being drunk...
Well, maybe it takes half a bottle of Jim Beam to help unleash my psychic powers... ;)

I'm curious, how long did that new view position hold? Was it only a second or two or were you able to hold it there longer? Did you notice that everything else had flipped around too, as in the rest of your house?
If the flip was permanent, that would make it more likely that you just staggered to the right without realising it. If the VRI is more complicated, then maybe it's some kind of miniature, partly controlled hallicination.

@Hugh: have you ever had a VRI with someone watching you? That might help you figure out what's actually going on.
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Postby Keiji » Thu Dec 14, 2006 8:15 am

Hugh wrote:
Rob wrote:Hmm, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by a VRI, but would an example of it be the fact that when I sleep the other end of my bed, I feel the wrong way round in the morning?

Ummmmmm, I think that's just due to sleeping the wrong way round that you feel the wrong way round. You'll know it's a VRI when you see things the "wrong way round". :)


Well, my nearest bedroom wall is usually on my right. What's the difference between seeing the wall on my left and feeling like it's on my right (which is what happens in that situation), and seeing the wall on my right and feeling like it's on my left (which has never happened)?
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Postby Hugh » Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:01 am

PWrong wrote:If the flip was permanent, that would make it more likely that you just staggered to the right without realising it. If the VRI is more complicated, then maybe it's some kind of miniature, partly controlled hallicination.

VRI flips are never "permanent". Here on Earth, we have a "normal" viewpoint that we are used to seeing each of our surroundings in, and there are 3 other views that are at 90 degrees left, 90 degrees right, and 180 degrees flipped from that "normal" view, that are accessible with VRIs. There are four different views available for each place. One can learn to freely flip between each view with practice. The default viewpoint though is the "normal" one, and if one doesn't focus at all, the normal viewpoint is what is seen.
PWrong wrote:@Hugh: have you ever had a VRI with someone watching you? That might help you figure out what's actually going on.

VRIs happen through one's own individual choice of viewing direction, within any particular space. You could be watching me, flipping through all four of the different viewpoints for myself by conscious will, and you could be staying in the same one viewpoint for yourself. You probably wouldn't realize it though, but I would see you from the four different available directions, and from my viewpoint, you do each of the four flips along with me. I see four different views of you as I flip, but if you choose not to do the VRIs yourself, you only see one view of me.

When you see a 2d necker cube ( http://www.healthyeyes.org.uk/index.php?id=145 ) flip one way or another, and I am watching you, do I see the same flips that you do? Nope. You could flip it to each of the two ways independently of how I see it. It's the same with the VRI. I can be doing the flip of my 3d viewpoint around, and you could be staying in the same view from your own point of view.

Btw, the VRI is as instant as a 2d necker cube flip, only it happens in full 3d to you and the whole universe. It's awesome. :)
Rob wrote:Well, my nearest bedroom wall is usually on my right. What's the difference between seeing the wall on my left and feeling like it's on my right (which is what happens in that situation), and seeing the wall on my right and feeling like it's on my left (which has never happened)?

The VRI flip involves a complete flip of you and your entire viewpoint. If you normally fall asleep with the wall on your right, and wake up with the wall still on your right, but with it now on the side where your left once was, and your head is now facing the direction where your feet once were, but your bed and the entire universe have all flipped around 180 degrees from where they "once were" too, that's a 180 degree VRI. You'd wake up, see things flipped around and say "Hey, this isn't how I normally see it" and then it would automatically do a 180 degree flip back to "normal" all on its own.

Normally, people do not control their VRIs, and just let them happen automatically, not realizing that there is a lot of fun to be had. :)
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Postby PWrong » Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:07 am

You could be watching me, flipping through all four of the different viewpoints for myself by conscious will, and you could be staying in the same one viewpoint for yourself.

Yes, but I might see you turn your head or something. Do you actually see anything in a VRI that you couldn't see otherwise? For instance, what if I was holding a sign that you can't read from whatever angle you're looking from? Could you do a VRI and then be able to read it?

The VRI flip involves a complete flip of you and your entire viewpoint. If you normally fall asleep with the wall on your right, and wake up with the wall still on your right, but with it now on the side where your left once was, and your head is now facing the direction where your feet once were, but your bed and the entire universe have all flipped around 180 degrees from where they "once were" too, that's a 180 degree VRI.

Doesn't that mean he just rolled over in bed?
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Postby Hugh » Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:19 am

PWrong wrote:Yes, but I might see you turn your head or something. Do you actually see anything in a VRI that you couldn't see otherwise? For instance, what if I was holding a sign that you can't read from whatever angle you're looking from? Could you do a VRI and then be able to read it?

Nope, I'd see the sign in the same position relative to you and me for each of the four flips. I don't see anything new with each flip, I see the exact same thing only it's from another direction, either from 90 degrees right or left, or from the 180 degrees opposite direction, relative to the initial position.
PWrong wrote:Doesn't that mean he just rolled over in bed?

Nope, he is still in the same position relative to the bed, with his head at the top, and his feet at the bottom, and the wall to his right, but everything would be turned around 180 degrees relative to their original position.

I wish I could explain it better to you. How about this, click on that 2d necker cube link on the post above and picture yourself as being within that cube, now do the flip back and forth. Imagine how it would feel being in that cube as it flipped around?

Also, look at how those two viewpoints could be considered as two different 3d cube views within the 4d hypercube in the avatar that I use.

That's why I think it might be 4d related. :)
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Postby Hugh » Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:19 am

I drew another picture to help illustrate the VRI. It represents a movie theater complex, with 4 different theaters, all facing different directions. Each screen has a different color.

Image

Now, picture yourself sitting in the green theater and get a sense of how that would feel in orientation. Then think of getting up, and taking a seat in the brown theater. This theater is flipped 90 degrees to the right of the green theater. Move to the blue theater, and feel how this is flipped 180 degrees from the green theater. Move to the red theater, and feel how this is flipped 90 degrees to the left of the green theater.

Now go back to the green theater and take a seat. Imagine that you are in the blue theater with the orientation 180 degrees flipped around from the green one you are in. (The 180 degree flip is the easiest one to do.)

When you feel that you are in the blue theater while looking at the green screen, you know that you have done a 180 degree VRI. Once you get better at it, you can see the green screen from the positions of the brown and red theaters too. Then you can flip through all 4 possible orientations of viewpoint, one at a time. :)
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Postby Keiji » Fri Dec 15, 2006 3:54 pm

So you're saying it's just a psychological trick? Then it isn't really very 4D.
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Postby Hugh » Fri Dec 15, 2006 4:58 pm

Rob wrote:So you're saying it's just a psychological trick? Then it isn't really very 4D.

Well, this is the question that I am posing by this thread. Could it be 4d related?

Try the VRI for yourself and actually experience it. Feel how it feels. You see the same thing from other directions. Higher dimensional space has those other directions actually available. Could this be a link? Possibly?
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Postby Keiji » Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:35 pm

Hugh wrote:Try the VRI for yourself and actually experience it.


That would be kind of difficult.
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Postby Hugh » Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:17 pm

Rob wrote:
Hugh wrote:Try the VRI for yourself and actually experience it.


That would be kind of difficult.

Why is that Rob? Is it because you don't live close to a movie theater?

Well, it doesn't have to be at a movie theater, you could just try the mirror flip that I mentioned earlier in the thread, or just try the VRI wherever you are. It's just that the movie theater is where I've found it easiest to do the flip, and for 1st time experimenters too. It has to do with the general similarity between theaters, the low lighting, the distant straight walls etc. that makes it easier to imagine oneself facing in another theater direction.

I was glad to hear that danielmoore was able to do the VRI in the theater. I'm hoping to hear back from anyone else who is able to experience the VRI there as well. :)
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Postby Keiji » Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:27 am

I just don't go to the movies. :P Yeah, I have no social life, so sue me, lol.

Still, I have no idea what I would do to achieve this VRI. :\
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Postby Hugh » Sat Dec 16, 2006 12:53 pm

Rob wrote:I just don't go to the movies. :P Yeah, I have no social life, so sue me, lol.

Oh, okay, I see, no problem.
Rob wrote:Still, I have no idea what I would do to achieve this VRI. :\

Have you got a wall mirror somewhere in the house, and a smaller handheld mirror, or a section of mirror preferably with a straight edge that you can hold? Try the mirror trick to not only see where it is that you "go to" but help you do the VRI itself. I have an explanation about this in my October 2nd post on page 1 of this thread, which I'll paste in here...

"If you take a mirror, and hold it vertically at a 90 degree angle to a wall mirror, you will see at the intersection, the 180 degree flipped around view of the viewpoint you are currently seeing. The writing you see in that double mirror image will appear correctly, as do any photos. If you do a 180 degree VRI flip into it, you then see where you just were in the double mirror reflection from the "other side" . You see things from the other direction! I remember showing my parents this as a child and saying "You see that other room over there, I can go into it!" Of course you physically don't go into the other room, you just see things from that direction. To see the 90 degree flipped other two directions, just hold the mirror at a 45 degree angle away from the wall mirror, either on your right or left respectively, and look at the double reflection shown. It's always easier for me to do a 180 degree flip than a 90, and fun to experience it with the double mirrors."

Would there be any problem with trying this experiment Rob?

Rob, the VRI just allows you to see your surroundings turned around 90 or 180 degrees. Think of a giant just picking up the room you're in and giving it a 180 degree turn about a vertical axis and putting it back down again. It feels the same way, except the whole universe gets turned around at the same time too. :)
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Postby Keiji » Sat Dec 16, 2006 9:15 pm

Okay, I tried that, but I didn't really notice anything odd... :\
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Postby Hugh » Sat Dec 16, 2006 9:50 pm

Rob wrote:Okay, I tried that, but I didn't really notice anything odd... :\

Were you able to see at the intersection of the two mirrors, the reflection of yourself, and "behind" that reflection, the room that you were in, and that it was flipped 180 degrees from its current viewed position around you, so that if you could "be" in that reflected room, "in the position it is reflected in", you would see yourself and the room around you flipped 180 degrees around? (Remember it's not a straight on mirror reflection you're going for here but the double mirror intersection reflection, so all the writing etc. stays normal, not backwards.)

Just stare at yourself in that reflection and the room behind you there and imagine yourself being in there. When you feel yourself looking back at yourself from the other direction, you've accomplished a 180 VRI. It's a lot of fun to flip back and forth.

Once you experience this it is easier to realize that there may be higher spatial dimensions to our existence. :)
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Postby thigle » Sat Dec 16, 2006 10:11 pm

hey hugh, i've been following this thread right from the beginning, and although i was sure the facticity of the VRI, i couldn't accomplish precise model for gaining sufficient experience to produce this experience at will. all your descriptions seemed to me like describing elephant's look to a blind man.

but i overlooked that axplanation with mirrors. however, now, having you re-state it, i noticed, and tried and its simple and it works. really cool shit. :lol: i owe you for this one ;)
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Postby Hugh » Sat Dec 16, 2006 10:20 pm

thigle wrote:but i overlooked that axplanation with mirrors. however, now, having you re-state it, i noticed, and tried and its simple and it works. really cool shit. :lol: i owe you for this one ;)

GREAT!! Wow that's just great thigle! How does it feel man? Have you seen it without using the mirrors? Tried it in other places? You can do it anywhere you want, and see 4 different views of everywhere you go. Really cool yup. :)

Now.... is there any possible link to a higher dimension? :)
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Postby Keiji » Thu Dec 28, 2006 10:37 pm

Hey Hugh, I think I've achieved the VRI!!

See, ever since I've had my new laptop I've been sleeping the other end of my bed, because of the ports being on the right, but that's off the point. Anyway, I was about to "doze off" a minute ago, but I shook my head and brought myself back to reality, and the instant I did that, I felt like I was lying the ordinary way round in my bed. I knew the wall was on my left, but when I stuck my arm out to the left, I was really shocked to actually feel it, an when I felt what was above me, I was similarly shocked to find the window, not the headrest.

So, would you call that a successful VRI? :)
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Postby Hugh » Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:31 am

Keiji wrote:So, would you call that a successful VRI? :)

It's definitely a step in the right direction Keiji!

I know the feeling you are talking about exactly. VRIs can happen when one is awaking from a snooze or sleep. You were used to being in your bed in a certain orientation, but you've recently changed it 180 degrees. When you awoke, you thought you were in the normal orientation, but it was actually 180 degrees flipped around.

Now, there is a very important part of this experience that you need to examine. When you opened your eyes and saw where you were:

1) did you actually see everything flipped around 180 degrees, and

2) did you experience a 180 degree VRI flip back to the "normal" orientation; how you normally see it?

You may want to try to repeat this experience several times and focus on the exact "feelings of orientation" that you are having. Try to actually be aware of seeing everything flipped around from the normal view, then be aware of how it automatically flips back to normal, then try to flip it back to how you just saw it again.

Good luck in your experimenting. :)
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Postby Keiji » Fri Dec 29, 2006 4:41 am

Hugh wrote:I know the feeling you are talking about exactly. VRIs can happen when one is awaking from a snooze or sleep. You were used to being in your bed in a certain orientation, but you've recently changed it 180 degrees. When you awoke, you thought you were in the normal orientation, but it was actually 180 degrees flipped around.


Well, I wasn't really awakening from anything. I was perfectly awake and felt myself sleepy, so I shook my head to bring me back to reality. :P

1) did you actually see everything flipped around 180 degrees, and

2) did you experience a 180 degree VRI flip back to the "normal" orientation; how you normally see it?


Well, considering that it was 10 PM at night and the only thing I could see was my laptop, I'd have to say no to both of those. ;)
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Postby Hugh » Fri Dec 29, 2006 6:00 am

Keiji wrote:Well, considering that it was 10 PM at night and the only thing I could see was my laptop, I'd have to say no to both of those. ;)

Okay. Well, the next time it happens, focus on the relative directions that you are seeing your laptop screen from, and see if there is a flip involved, then you'll know if it's a VRI or not.

Right now, I can do a 180 degree VRI and see my computer screen from the opposite direction, and flip back and forth between the two views. Interestingly enough though, the full effect of the VRI isn't as impressive as when you are seeing a much larger room with more lighting do the flip, or better yet, when you are outside and you see your whole outside surroundings do the flip.

Here's another interesting experiment to try with the VRI. Next time you are watching a game on TV - football, hockey, basketball, whatever, be conscious of where you think that the field or rink is oriented relative to the direction that you are currently facing. Do you sense that you are looking at the field in the same direction that the field is actually in, if you were there? Experiment with flipping your view around so that you are looking at the field from another angle, 90 or 180 degrees flipped from where you are looking from now.

You may find that you can do the VRI within your viewpoint of the field. Try to notice at the same time what happens to your viewpoint of the room that you are currently in while doing this. Do you find that your room view flips around too?
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Postby papernuke » Fri Dec 29, 2006 6:06 am

Whats VRI? And how can you see a flip if you or the object isn't even moving?
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Postby Hugh » Fri Dec 29, 2006 7:18 am

Icon wrote:Whats VRI? And how can you see a flip if you or the object isn't even moving?

Hi Icon, welcome to the VRI thread. :)

The VRI is short for a "Visual Reorientation Illusion". It is an instant change of your viewing direction that you can experience.

You feel yourself looking at your surroundings from one direction, then, suddenly, you feel yourself looking at your surroundings from another direction, either 90 degrees or 180 degrees flipped around. It's as if you and the whole universe gets turned around in an instant.

It used to happen to me a lot as a child, I'd come home from a shopping trip or school and find that my house (and everything else) was "turned around" from the normal way that I saw it. As I studied what was happening I'd find that there were four possible ways that I could see my house, (and everything else). Each of the views were at right angles to each other. I found that I could flip between each view, after I got comfortable with the "feel" of each one. I experimented with the flip in other places, and found that it was always easiest to do it in a movie theater.

The easiest way that I could explain how it feels is this:

Picture yourself in a big glass box, facing forward in a certain direction. Now, I come along, and turn the box around, so that you are facing in the opposite direction, backwards to how you were facing before. Do you see how you are now facing the opposite direction? Now, when you experience the VRI, you end up facing in the opposite direction, but your whole room, world, and universe gets turned around with you at the same time, and it happens in an instant, so even though nothing has moved physically, your perception of which direction you are facing has moved to another direction. :)
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Postby papernuke » Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:26 pm

But how can you experience something like that when you or the object isn't moving? THe only way would be that you're seeing through a higher dimension.
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Postby Hugh » Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:28 pm

Icon wrote:But how can you experience something like that when you or the object isn't moving? THe only way would be that you're seeing through a higher dimension.

That's what I'm thinking is what may be happening. :)
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Postby Keiji » Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:50 am

So hmm are you saying that the misjudgement of where something is indicates a VRI flip?

Example: right now, I'm facing north, but I feel like America is on my right, which it isn't, because it's west of Britain.
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Postby Hugh » Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:29 am

Keiji wrote:So hmm are you saying that the misjudgement of where something is indicates a VRI flip?

Example: right now, I'm facing north, but I feel like America is on my right, which it isn't, because it's west of Britain.

Well, I think the VRI gets dismissed as just a misjudgement or as confusion, so people miss out on the possible ramifications of its existence.

The VRI does flip around one's bearing sense of direction, which confuses people, so it is seen as more of a nuisance or problem, something to be avoided. One can get lost experimenting with or experiencing this phenomenon. You may have heard of someone getting lost because they got "turned around" for example. They think they are heading north when they are actually heading south.

The key distinction to be made here though is that when one experiences the VRI, one actually sees their surroundings from another direction. It's quite a sight to behold.

When you do the 2d necker cube flip http://www.healthyeyes.org.uk/index.php?id=145 you actually see an instant flip. It's the same with the VRI, except you actually see everything flip around in 3d, including yourself.

All that I'm saying is that the 2d necker cube flip happens because we understand 3d, and the 3d necker flip may happen because we are actually in 4d, or higher, and have those extra directions of space available.

Edit: I recently started a thread about VRIs on the new Fourth Dimension discussion forum at: http://astronutt.proboards88.com/index.cgi?board=4d&action=display&thread=1167567624

Edit: I recently started a VRI thread on the Impossible Creatures Planet website forum (I play the PC game Impossible Creatures online): http://icp.mednickonline.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=XForum&file=viewthread&tid=13815&page=1#pid183072
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Postby Hugh » Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:03 pm

Here is a page that I talked about a while back from Alex Bogomolny which discusses the Tesseract (a 4d hypercube):

http://www.maa.org/editorial/knot/tesseract.html

There is a quote from it which I'd like to tie in to the VRI experience if it is possible, but I'd need some help on the math and geometry aspects of it.

"Travelling in 4D may have a milder effect on a 3D body than turning it inside out. It may only change its orientation."

Here is the full quote:

"In a horizontal plane, a square has an upside and a downside. Only one is visible when its rotation is confined to the plane. In the 3-dimensional space both sides are in principle visible. In 3D, a cube has an inside and an outside. However it is turned in the 3-dimensional space, only its outside is visible, the inside remains hidden. In 4D, a cube can be turned inside out by rotating around one of its 2-dimensional faces. That's right. In 2D, we can only rotate a shape around a point. In 3D, we can also rotate around a 1-dimensional axis - for example, an edge in the case of a cube. In 4D, a shape can be rotated around a plane. (In the above applet one can clearly observe the phenomenon by fixing the location of the origin.) It must be understood that in 4D a 3-dimensional cube has neither inside nor outside. All points of a cube are as much exposed in 4D as are the points of a square in 3D. (This is what makes a prospect of 4D-travel so unpleasant. It also follows from the above that 4D-travel is extremely dangerous. Back in 3D, a traveller may find himself in a state of excessive introversion.)

Vacuously, in a square there is only 1 square that contains a given edge. In a cube, every edge is shared by 2 squares. In a tesseract, 3 squares meet at every edge. Taken pairwise, squares through the same edge define three cubes. Detecting the three cubes seems akin to shifting a view point when observing the Necker cube.

I found this observation useful when playing with the applet below. What is it about? Travelling in 4D may have a milder effect on a 3D body than turning it inside out. It may only change its orientation.
"

(All highlighting was done by me.)

Okay, so my idea here is that if there are higher dimensions to ourselves, the space around us, and the universe itself, then there would be this Necker cube type of shift of viewpoint available, which would end up changing our orientation of our 3d viewpoint, which is what the VRI actually does. :)
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