even possible?

If you don't know where to post something, put it here and an administrator or moderator will move it to the right place.

even possible?

Postby batmanmg » Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:09 am

is it actualy possible to fully visualize a tesseract? Like actualy have a complete image of one in your mind?
too many people have self replicating sigs. Don't copy this.
batmanmg
Trionian
 
Posts: 201
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:21 pm

Postby wendy » Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:36 am

Yes
The dream you dream alone is only a dream
the dream we dream together is reality.
User avatar
wendy
Pentonian
 
Posts: 1493
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:42 pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Postby batmanmg » Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:52 am

do you mean what the tesseract actualy looks like... or 3d projection of the tesseract?
too many people have self replicating sigs. Don't copy this.
batmanmg
Trionian
 
Posts: 201
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:21 pm

Postby pat » Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:15 pm

Batmanmg, Can you fully visualize the human brain? Have you actually seen one with your eyes? Have you only seen models? Have you only seen slices (CAT Scans)? Have you only seen drawings?

Can six blind people fully visualize an elephant (modulo color)?

I'm with wendy. Yes.
pat
Tetronian
 
Posts: 563
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 5:30 pm
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Postby houserichichi » Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:12 am

I'm with those two...to visualize something isn't the hard part, it's actually seeing the damn thing that's impossible.
houserichichi
Tetronian
 
Posts: 590
Joined: Wed May 12, 2004 1:03 am
Location: Canada

Postby papernuke » Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:55 am

no, because were in the third dimension and we cant see or imagine a tesseract.
"Civilization is a race between education and catastrophe."
-H.G. Wells
papernuke
Tetronian
 
Posts: 612
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2006 6:33 pm
Location: California, US of A

Postby batmanmg » Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:35 am

ill ask this then... do you think that you see it as a 2d projection, or can you see it 3 dimensionaly (as in as if through 3d eyes) in your mind?
too many people have self replicating sigs. Don't copy this.
batmanmg
Trionian
 
Posts: 201
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:21 pm

Postby pat » Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:32 pm

Icon wrote:no, because were in the third dimension and we cant see or imagine a tesseract.


Because we're several meters tall, we cannot imagine things that are less than a millimeter tall.

Because we are stuck here on Earth, we cannot imagine what the Milky Way galaxy looks like from outside.

???
pat
Tetronian
 
Posts: 563
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 5:30 pm
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Postby papernuke » Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:57 am

what???

[edit] you probably can imagine a tesseract bagman, but you still cant see it.
"Civilization is a race between education and catastrophe."
-H.G. Wells
papernuke
Tetronian
 
Posts: 612
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2006 6:33 pm
Location: California, US of A

Postby thigle » Sat Oct 14, 2006 5:48 pm

of course it's possible. just needs patience, diligence & practice.

one can both imagine & SEE a tesseract. it is called EIDETIC IMAGERY. that means, that one can SEE imaginary objects also with eyes open, in quality undistinguishable from perceptual phenomena. this is different from hallucination, fantasy & daydreaming, and has been fairly well studied.
children up to 7 years usually have this skill, which is later pushed to periphery of consciousness by rational patterns settling in the mind.

anyway, one way or other, it IS possible to imagine as well as to SEE multidimensional objects.
thigle
Tetronian
 
Posts: 388
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 5:00 pm

Postby batmanmg » Sun Oct 15, 2006 7:17 am

Icon wrote:what???

[edit] you probably can imagine a tesseract bagman, but you still cant see it.


first off its batmanmg

pat wrote:Because we're several meters tall, we cannot imagine things that are less than a millimeter tall.

Because we are stuck here on Earth, we cannot imagine what the Milky Way galaxy looks like from outside.

???


second... its very easy to see those things through scale models...

thigle wrote:of course it's possible. just needs patience, diligence & practice.

one can both imagine & SEE a tesseract. it is called EIDETIC IMAGERY. that means, that one can SEE imaginary objects also with eyes open, in quality undistinguishable from perceptual phenomena. this is different from hallucination, fantasy & daydreaming, and has been fairly well studied.
children up to 7 years usually have this skill, which is later pushed to periphery of consciousness by rational patterns settling in the mind.

anyway, one way or other, it IS possible to imagine as well as to SEE multidimensional objects.


Now this is extremely interesting... so our minds don't start out working through 2d imagry and 3d understanding... it is adimensional (doesn't have a dimension of preference) but our eyes limitations and physical world conditions the mind that way... so therefore your mind can revert back to this adimensional state and imagine a higher dimensional object...

well what about the colors we see... is our mind originaly without color set preference? is it possible to imagine a color that lies outside of our visual spectrum? or is the spectrum a cilcical set that has no beyond or outside? this would make sense and goes along with the growing mind idea becuase dimensions are infinent like a line,,, no ciclical working there.
too many people have self replicating sigs. Don't copy this.
batmanmg
Trionian
 
Posts: 201
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:21 pm

Postby thigle » Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:42 am

well what about the colors we see... is our mind originaly without color set preference?


i wouldnt say without, but surely there are colors one can not see through physical eyes, colors that are outside of the visible spectrum, deeper in the schematisation of ever-present undifferentiated synaesthetic experience that is constantly moulded by the niches of microgenetic perceptual processes (conditioned culturally, genetically, spiritually).

if one looks inside/through/beyond the matter, the perceptual situation changes. the colors first become opalescent & iridiscent, further, the colors become unclassifiable by classical empiric color taxonomy.

this can be most easily encountered in practice of lucid dreaming, or through mental gymnastics aimed at imagining faculty of the mind, or through ec-static techniques (like beat,dance, etc) leading to trance-states, or in psychedelic experience.

actually, it is a well known fact in color theories, that humanity learned to distinguish colors historically. for ex., in old greek literature, like illiad&odyssey and other classics, many things are consistently put under one color label - red, even if it is sure they could not be so. like red ocean, grass, ...
it is documented [baleka,87?], that languague color-distinctions in western indo-european civilisation have popped up through the history in the same sequence as the light is decomposed through prism - the rainbow spectrum being a readily observable instance of it.

so humankind first distinguished the color red. lastly color blue.

but now that we almost exhausted the richness of empirical phenomenal world, we can turn our attention to refine the precision of our color perception by adding on the 'colors of the invisible'.
thigle
Tetronian
 
Posts: 388
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 5:00 pm

Postby wendy » Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:45 am

Blue is a less obvious colour in the tropics, and this colour is seen as two different colours in Russian.

So i guess,
The dream you dream alone is only a dream
the dream we dream together is reality.
User avatar
wendy
Pentonian
 
Posts: 1493
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:42 pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Postby XVX » Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:16 am

You cannot visualize a tesseract. The closest anyones brain will ever come is a stereographic image.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ster ... _8cell.png

ALL angles must be right angles and ALL lines must be equal in length.

From the stereographic image, you can see that, locally, all angles are right angles, but clearly, the outer lines are much larger than the inner.


You will never imagine two identical boxes, one inside the other, with their vertices connected by right angles.
XVX
Mononian
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:06 am
Location: Local Group

Postby thigle » Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:53 am

oh no. another rigid egoist who thinks what he cannot do noone can. how blue.

surely, one can do that. just that the pattern of the logic of excluded middle must be left behind. you CAN hold seemingly irreconcible beings in your mind. your mind is not bound by physical properties. you can pass walls in dreams, you can fly in dreams, etc. - no physical limits apply to mind's eye.
conditions of physicality & ordinary vision do not apply.

it's actually simpler to learn with simplices at first. so for 5-cell, one imagines 5 tetrahedrons ALL of the same size, ALL angles same, ALL touching all the others.


it's not easy to persuade a lifelonghabit to take vacation, but sometimes you can just kick it out of the window.

so snap out of it & bend your habits, ye doubtful being. you'll be rewarded by an experience of 'impossible'.

or keep on mumbling your opinion and leave your reason sleeping.
thigle
Tetronian
 
Posts: 388
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 5:00 pm

Postby XVX » Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:39 pm

I see. If I'm a rigid egoist, then you are just plain ignorant.


There's nothing difficult to understand here. The simple fact of the matter is that a tesseract requires four dimensions to visualize correctly. No one argues that.

If you think your brain is so mighty that it can visualize the fourth dimension, then, logically, you should be able to, right now, point to it for me.


But you can't. Because you can't imagine the 4th dimension.

It's not a limitation of intelligence or imagination. It's the limit of human experience.




PS. Keep your preaching to yourself. You have no idea what my background is.
XVX
Mononian
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:06 am
Location: Local Group

Postby pat » Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:43 pm

XVX wrote:If you think your brain is so mighty that it can visualize the fourth dimension, then, logically, you should be able to, right now, point to it for me.


??? So, I'm thinking of a pink elephant right now. Want me to imagine pointing at it for you?
pat
Tetronian
 
Posts: 563
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 5:30 pm
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Postby XVX » Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:50 pm

BTW, there are no colors beyond the visual spectrum.

Light and color is just a small portion of the EM spectrum. To the left and right is infrared and microwaves.

If our Sun had it's peak wavelength in the micorwave spectrum, then our eyes would have evovled by seeing the microwave spectrum and not the visible light spectrum.
XVX
Mononian
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:06 am
Location: Local Group

Postby XVX » Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:52 pm

pat wrote:
XVX wrote:If you think your brain is so mighty that it can visualize the fourth dimension, then, logically, you should be able to, right now, point to it for me.


??? So, I'm thinking of a pink elephant right now. Want me to imagine pointing at it for you?



A pink elephant doesn't require something beyond your experience to visualize. ie the 4th dimension. Thats the key here. Referencing 3D objects is a false analogy. Please try again.
XVX
Mononian
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:06 am
Location: Local Group

Postby pat » Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:34 pm

No, but it does show that I can imagine things that I cannot point to. I don't know what you want from us. I can visualize a tesseract. I cannot point to it. I cannot explain to you beyond saying that I can visualize it. And, I can visualize a four-dimensional Euclidean space. I can visualize pointing in the kata direction.

My point is that when you say "logically, you should be able to point to it for me", it's not logical at all.
pat
Tetronian
 
Posts: 563
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 5:30 pm
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Postby pat » Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:47 pm

XVX wrote:A pink elephant doesn't require something beyond your experience to visualize.

I have never experienced a pink elephant. I have never experienced zero-gravity. I have never experienced an infinite number of dominoes set end-to-end. I have never experienced total protonic reversal. I have never experienced a sudden drop in cabin pressure.

All of these are outside of my experience. Some of them are "beyond" what I could ever experience. I think that I can visualize all of those except the total protonic reversal. The dominoes is a stretch (no pun intended).

Explain to me why I can't possibly visualize these things (that I believe that I do visualize) or why these things are not "beyond my experience" while the tesseract is?
pat
Tetronian
 
Posts: 563
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 5:30 pm
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Postby XVX » Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:24 am

All those things, except for the nonsensical ones, like a reversed proton and being able to see infinities, is within human experience.

There is NO analog to seeing the 4th dimension. It is entirely unique and beyond our experience. There is NO analogy.


Again, you can prove to all of us that you can visualize a tesseract. Let us all draw a right handed coordinate system in our room with North being the positive y-axis and East being the positive x-axis.

Now, imagine your tesseract in the coordinate system of your room. Since the tesseract MUST exist in four dimensions, you should be seeing the majority of the tesseract NOT in your coordinate system.

If you can truly visualize a tesseract, then you can visualize the 4th dimension and then should be able to point to it with your finger in real life.

Simply record your data and let us reproduce it.
XVX
Mononian
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:06 am
Location: Local Group

Postby PWrong » Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:30 am

If you can truly visualize a tesseract, then you can visualize the 4th dimension and then should be able to point to it with your finger in real life.

Likewise, if you can truly visualise a pink elephant, you should be able to point to one with your finger in real life. It should be easy, since you claim it is within human experience.
User avatar
PWrong
Pentonian
 
Posts: 1408
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2004 8:21 am
Location: Perth, Australia

Postby thigle » Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:06 pm

hey pat, some people just have hard time discerning doxa from ratio, so they think that barked out opinions are articulated reason. it usually doesn't help telling them.

dear XVX. i can preach as much as anyone here if i choose to do so. and i do when i find it appropriate. also, i do not need an idea of your background for it.
the only reason of people telling you that it can be done, is their good will and love, wanna let you know that you actually can loosen up your uptight mindass and let yourself at least glimpse a possibility of what you're missing by snapping onto your self-imposed limits. (which you even try to impose on others, which surely is not only rigid egoism but also a sign of repressed aggressivity)

so if you wanna learn what many already did, keep trying, listen to the experiencing and the experienced, and do not bother doubting.

otherwise you are persuading an eagle and shark that they can't fly and swim. not only they can, also, they don't understand you.
for those wild beasts, it's not a question of logic, it is existential truth deep under projection of logic. your contrary claim is for them as absurd & impossible as it is for them simple to dissappear in air and water by their impossible means.
thigle
Tetronian
 
Posts: 388
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 5:00 pm

Postby houserichichi » Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:18 pm

Someone correct me if I'm wrong...one can visualize (imagine) what the fourth dimension or objects therein would behave like were they emmersed in our world. In fact, a quick scour of the net should turn up some 3D projections of hypercubes and other higher dimensional cousins. I'll let you guys beat it out over visualizing the actual 4D object itself because I'm not a neuroscientists (or whoever's field that is) nor able to do it myself if it's possible to begin with. Same token one cannot see (literally have light stimulate the eye) the fourth dimension because that would imply that it exists and, as XVX is saying, one cannot point to "it" or in the direction "of it". One cannot see a tesseract because a tesseract is a construct of the mind, not a real, physical object. You guys sound to me like you're beating a dead horse over semantics.

Maybe define your versions of "visualize" and "see" and we can all come to some sort of middle ground.

/interjection
houserichichi
Tetronian
 
Posts: 590
Joined: Wed May 12, 2004 1:03 am
Location: Canada

Postby pat » Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:00 pm

XVX wrote:Simply record your data and let us reproduce it.

You seem to miss the distinction between "visualize" and "actualize".

Further, I fail to see why an infinite line of dominoes is "nonsensical" (especially given that a pink elephant is not).
pat
Tetronian
 
Posts: 563
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 5:30 pm
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Postby Hugh » Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:21 pm

Pink elephant. :D

Image
User avatar
Hugh
Tetronian
 
Posts: 597
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 11:44 pm

Postby batmanmg » Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:02 pm

the only reason we can't point to the fourth dimension is that our bodies cannot produce a force in the fourth dimension becuase no part of our body exists in the fourth dimension... action requires equal and opposite action... we have nothing to push off of to get ourhand in those directions otherwise it would be a peice of cake and i could raid several banks right now.

now with XVX's rant aside... i have heard many claiming to be able to visualize a tesseract... or the fourth dimension in general... I won't argue the validity of such claims becuase it is an impossible arguement...

instead i ask, when you visualise 4d are you using 2d vision to do it (our regular every day eyesight)? or are you using 3d vision to do so?

3d vision being that you are seeing every point not through transparency but just by vision alone, of a 3d slice, and therefore seeing at least the entire boundary of a tesseract... with this tesseract being solid your limited to seeing its outside only...

the wireframe tesseract is a dull example of visualization becuase its just as good as a 2d being claiming to be able to visualise a point framed cube. The points being at its 8 corners. That visualization is a mere optical illusionary trick of the mind... no substantial visualization is acheived.
too many people have self replicating sigs. Don't copy this.
batmanmg
Trionian
 
Posts: 201
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:21 pm

Postby pat » Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:50 pm

batmanmg wrote:instead i ask, when you visualise 4d are you using 2d vision to do it (our regular every day eyesight)? or are you using 3d vision to do so?

Sometimes 3d, sometimes 4d. Sometimes, I want to see it all, not just what one could see from within the same 4-space with 3d retinas but instead what one could see from outside the tesseract's 4-space with 4d retinas.
pat
Tetronian
 
Posts: 563
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 5:30 pm
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Postby XVX » Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:58 am

thigle wrote:hey pat, some people just have hard time discerning doxa from ratio, so they think that barked out opinions are articulated reason. it usually doesn't help telling them.

dear XVX. i can preach as much as anyone here if i choose to do so. and i do when i find it appropriate. also, i do not need an idea of your background for it.
the only reason of people telling you that it can be done, is their good will and love, wanna let you know that you actually can loosen up your uptight mindass and let yourself at least glimpse a possibility of what you're missing by snapping onto your self-imposed limits. (which you even try to impose on others, which surely is not only rigid egoism but also a sign of repressed aggressivity)

so if you wanna learn what many already did, keep trying, listen to the experiencing and the experienced, and do not bother doubting.

otherwise you are persuading an eagle and shark that they can't fly and swim. not only they can, also, they don't understand you.
for those wild beasts, it's not a question of logic, it is existential truth deep under projection of logic. your contrary claim is for them as absurd & impossible as it is for them simple to dissappear in air and water by their impossible means.


Reading your diatribe is quite humorous. You really said a whole lot of nothing.

Instead of addressing my points, you attacked my character.

And background means everything. Are you going to listen to a Food server about the Universe or a physicist?

Ya know, I really don't understand what is so difficult to grasp here.

In essence, this is what you people are saying to me. We can visualize the sky, but we can't point to it. And thats absurd. If you can visualize a direction in your brain, then you can point to it in life. A stupid pink elephant is an object, not a direction. Get off the elephant already like your making some meaningful point. You are not.

Hey guys, I can visualize the East direction in my brain, but I can't point to it.

Hey guys, I can visualize down in my brain, but I can't point in the direction of down.

Hey guys, I can visualize the 4th dimension in my brain, but I can't point to it.

How is it that you can visualize and point to all other directions but the 4th? Simple, your not correctly imagining it.

Has that ever occurred to you? That maybe what "you think" your visualizing is incorrect to the real thing?


Probably not.


And that my friend, is the sign of a closed mind. Not seeing all possibilities.
XVX
Mononian
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:06 am
Location: Local Group

Next

Return to Where Should I Post This?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest